Question Details
Adenocarcinoma With Carcinomatosis
by
amymatthews
-
September 21, 2009
Replies
by
amymatthews
September 21, 2009
Sorry about the blank post.
I have a 7 year old MI Leonberger patient who was diagnosed with jejunal adenocarcinoma (surgically removed) with carcinomatosis 5 months ago (symptom was vomiting). The owners are desperate to keep him healthy, and they put him on artemisinin and vascustatin. He has also been on TCM herbs from Dr. Wen (Natural Solutions, Long Island), at first LymphoK and H86; and after the vomiting recurred and mild abdominal effusion devloped, H44 (I can give you the list of ingredients if desired). After the first dose of H44 he had heat radiating from the caudal half of his body, but no improvement. He did very well for the first 4 months after diagnosis with the above treatment + chiro and acupuncture (Are Thoresen technique for cancer).
His tongue is typically pink, a little bright, with a mild divet at the tip (was taught as HT Def), thin clear coat. His pulse feels incredibly normal, though once it was weaker on the left. On Are Thoresen pulse taking, he is reliably KI Def, once he was also PC Def.
He is no longer doing well - vomiting has become much more frequent, has a mild abdominal fluid wave. ON abdominal ultrasound, the spleen is enlarged and several fluid pockets detectable; suspected mass near mesenteric root (where carcinomatosis was seen at the original surgery). He is a Fire dog, loves to play, loved being a show dog. He is sensitive to antibiotics and anesthesia, also to the antiemetic cerenia (tolerates metoclopramide and mirtazapine well...must taste these...!). He had massive hair loss (like post-partum telogen) when on cerenia as well as ataxia and diarrhea (the hair coat change was dramatic; was also on H44 at that time).
any thoughts for this still-beautiful guy? Your story of "Rob" made me think there might be alternative approaches.
Thank you.
Amy
I have a 7 year old MI Leonberger patient who was diagnosed with jejunal adenocarcinoma (surgically removed) with carcinomatosis 5 months ago (symptom was vomiting). The owners are desperate to keep him healthy, and they put him on artemisinin and vascustatin. He has also been on TCM herbs from Dr. Wen (Natural Solutions, Long Island), at first LymphoK and H86; and after the vomiting recurred and mild abdominal effusion devloped, H44 (I can give you the list of ingredients if desired). After the first dose of H44 he had heat radiating from the caudal half of his body, but no improvement. He did very well for the first 4 months after diagnosis with the above treatment + chiro and acupuncture (Are Thoresen technique for cancer).
His tongue is typically pink, a little bright, with a mild divet at the tip (was taught as HT Def), thin clear coat. His pulse feels incredibly normal, though once it was weaker on the left. On Are Thoresen pulse taking, he is reliably KI Def, once he was also PC Def.
He is no longer doing well - vomiting has become much more frequent, has a mild abdominal fluid wave. ON abdominal ultrasound, the spleen is enlarged and several fluid pockets detectable; suspected mass near mesenteric root (where carcinomatosis was seen at the original surgery). He is a Fire dog, loves to play, loved being a show dog. He is sensitive to antibiotics and anesthesia, also to the antiemetic cerenia (tolerates metoclopramide and mirtazapine well...must taste these...!). He had massive hair loss (like post-partum telogen) when on cerenia as well as ataxia and diarrhea (the hair coat change was dramatic; was also on H44 at that time).
any thoughts for this still-beautiful guy? Your story of "Rob" made me think there might be alternative approaches.
Thank you.
Amy
by
naturevet
September 21, 2009
Hi Amy,
Internal tumors with definable borders are always Blood stasis. In addition, fluid waves indicate a TB problem, since it is the TB that descends water to the Bladder for processing. If it is obstructed, then Water overflows into the peritoneal or pleural spaces.
The TB is part of the Shao Yang, which is given the role of facilitating the mixing of Yang into Yin. If this was functioning properly, Blood stasis tumors wouldn't form, since Yang energy would always be galvanizing and mobilizing the Yin interior.
So from two different rationales, we have the need for opening the Triple Burner and harmonizing the Shao Yang becoming apparent. So I'd start with Xiao Chai Hu Tang (Minor Bupleurum Combination) and see what happens. We can also add in a Blood mover if needed, but there should be some improvement if we are on the right track. Sorry but I'm unfamiliar with the products mentioned above unless they are homotoxicology remedies. Even then, I don't know much about them.
Hope that helps,
Steve
Internal tumors with definable borders are always Blood stasis. In addition, fluid waves indicate a TB problem, since it is the TB that descends water to the Bladder for processing. If it is obstructed, then Water overflows into the peritoneal or pleural spaces.
The TB is part of the Shao Yang, which is given the role of facilitating the mixing of Yang into Yin. If this was functioning properly, Blood stasis tumors wouldn't form, since Yang energy would always be galvanizing and mobilizing the Yin interior.
So from two different rationales, we have the need for opening the Triple Burner and harmonizing the Shao Yang becoming apparent. So I'd start with Xiao Chai Hu Tang (Minor Bupleurum Combination) and see what happens. We can also add in a Blood mover if needed, but there should be some improvement if we are on the right track. Sorry but I'm unfamiliar with the products mentioned above unless they are homotoxicology remedies. Even then, I don't know much about them.
Hope that helps,
Steve
by
amymatthews
October 27, 2009
He's started on the Xiao Chai Hu Tang this weekend but had some vomiting. Since vomiting is his main (and pretty frequent) symptom, it's hard to really assess whether it's the herb that's causing trouble, but the frequency of the vomiting was higher. I'd like to give the herb a longer time to see how effective it is. Since his nausea may be coming more from the mass causing traction on his mesenteric root or from the presence of masses in his abdomen rather than directly through the gi tract, I didn't know if there were any herbs that could be added to soothe his general tendency towards vomiting, which is really why I'm posting this update. If not, we'll just see if we can pull off a trial of at least 2 weeks as long as he's not continuing to worsen.
thanks as always,
Amy
thanks as always,
Amy
by
naturevet
October 27, 2009
Hi Amy,
To test if the herbs cause vomiting, they can always stop, then restart them. If the vomiting stops and restarts at the same time, then we'll need to do something different.
If the herbs are the problem, but we want to give them a try, start at a low dose and work your way up.
Good luck,
Steve
To test if the herbs cause vomiting, they can always stop, then restart them. If the vomiting stops and restarts at the same time, then we'll need to do something different.
If the herbs are the problem, but we want to give them a try, start at a low dose and work your way up.
Good luck,
Steve
by
amymatthews
November 22, 2009
Tried this twice, didn't do well on it. The owners were reluctant to pursue anything else because this dog was vomiting in response to so many things we tried at this point. It may just have been awfully late in his disease process to be trying, but he otherwise wasn't vomiting much (which is kindof strange, he was vomiting much more before he started getting weak). He was euthanized last week.
In memorium.
In memorium.
by
naturevet
November 22, 2009
Hi Amy,
Sorry to hear how things turned out. But we have to lose some, or we'd be knee deep in dogs, cats, people, budgies....so I hope you're not feeling too bad. It seems you got a fair number of months out of the dog, considering the diagnosis, so I hope you're feeling okay about things. I know the feeling, though, of always wanting more...
Steve
Sorry to hear how things turned out. But we have to lose some, or we'd be knee deep in dogs, cats, people, budgies....so I hope you're not feeling too bad. It seems you got a fair number of months out of the dog, considering the diagnosis, so I hope you're feeling okay about things. I know the feeling, though, of always wanting more...
Steve
by
amymatthews
November 22, 2009
Thanks, Steve. I'm at peace with it - we went through a lot with this dog, he loved his work, I loved working on him - always want to make miracles happen, of course! And perhaps we did...the oncologist couldn't believe how well he looked with no chemo at 6 months out...literally shocked. This was, of course, just before he started going downhill.
I also just really like giving follow up - it definitely helps me learn. And for me, it honors the dog's memory, too.
Amy
I also just really like giving follow up - it definitely helps me learn. And for me, it honors the dog's memory, too.
Amy
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