Question Details
Intermittent Diarrhea In A Dog
by
bfellisdvm
-
October 18, 2022 View Case Report
Replies
by
naturevet
October 19, 2022
Hi Brett!
The pulse you're feeling and that response to BL 40 can sometimes be seen in animals with Wei Qi deficiency and secondary pathogen invasion, most likely a Wind Damp Heat given the symptoms. The current formula covers Spleen Damp and Heat, but not Wind, so it's not enough to resolve the issue, it would seem.
Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San (Agastache Combination) expels Wind Damp Heat while supporting the Spleen, so it should work to improve the symptoms but more permanently oust the pathogen.
A Wei Qi tonic might work well once the pathogen is expelled to prevent reinfection. I think Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang should be fine for that.
Hope that helps!!
Steve
The pulse you're feeling and that response to BL 40 can sometimes be seen in animals with Wei Qi deficiency and secondary pathogen invasion, most likely a Wind Damp Heat given the symptoms. The current formula covers Spleen Damp and Heat, but not Wind, so it's not enough to resolve the issue, it would seem.
Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San (Agastache Combination) expels Wind Damp Heat while supporting the Spleen, so it should work to improve the symptoms but more permanently oust the pathogen.
A Wei Qi tonic might work well once the pathogen is expelled to prevent reinfection. I think Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang should be fine for that.
Hope that helps!!
Steve
by
bfellisdvm
October 20, 2022
Great! That makes more sense that Wind invasion is causing the surging pulse than Yin deficiency. The BZYQT has seemed to help restrain and consolidate, but has not changed the Damp pulse or surging ((Wind) character to pulse. Switching to Huo Xiang Zheng Qi Tang and will add Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang when indicated.
Thank you!!
Brett
Thank you!!
Brett
by
bfellisdvm
October 20, 2022
Great! That makes more sense that Wind invasion is causing the surging pulse than Yin deficiency. The BZYQT has seemed to help restrain and consolidate, but has not changed the Damp pulse or surging ((Wind) character to pulse. Switching to Huo Xiang Zheng Qi Tang and will add Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang when indicated.
Thank you!!
Brett
Thank you!!
Brett
by
bfellis
November 7, 2022
Marshall Trucker has had normal stool for 2 weeks. I started with Huo Xiang Zheng Qi Tang at 1.2 gm bid. Added Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang when stools were better but pulse was still very full, toned and improved with pressure on SP 9. BL 40 did not change pulse as it did initially. I stopped HXZQT and kept BZYQT at 1.2 gm bid. (All Natural Path). Stools have remained better than ever on BZYQT and 50-75% whole food diet, even with traveling for races (dry land mushing/bikejor) where he took 3rd in a competitive one dog bikejor competition! Thank you! He was on Wei Ling Yang prior to all the diarrhea. We stopped it with the HXZQT but found that this herb really helps keep his Yang Ming warm and less damp. Any thoughts as to what sign we would see (with pulse change or other) as to when the BZYQT would be no longer needed? Thank you
Brett Ellis
Brett Ellis
by
naturevet
November 9, 2022
That's great news, Brett! I would monitor the pulse and when you see it subside to moderate, then he probably doesn't need the BZYQT any more. You might want to keep it in play through the winter, though, to be on the safe side, since this is the season when it is really called for.
Hope that helps
Steve
Hope that helps
Steve
by
bfellisdvm
November 15, 2022
So far so good with 1gm WLT and 1 gm BZYQT!
Can I ask another case question now?I have good horse case that I would love some help choosing a Qi mover, or a Shao Yang formula to lube the pivot. Thanks!
Brett
Can I ask another case question now?I have good horse case that I would love some help choosing a Qi mover, or a Shao Yang formula to lube the pivot. Thanks!
Brett
by
bfellisdvm
November 15, 2022
So far so good with 1gm WLT and 1 gm BZYQT bid!
Can I ask another case question now?I have good horse case that I would love some help choosing a Qi mover, or a Shao Yang formula to lube the pivot. Thanks!
Brett
Can I ask another case question now?I have good horse case that I would love some help choosing a Qi mover, or a Shao Yang formula to lube the pivot. Thanks!
Brett
by
naturevet
November 16, 2022
Hi Brett,
That's great news! As to your horse, there is nothing wrong with good old Xiao Chai Hu Tang for horses, unless there are some specific symptoms that suggest we need something else?
Steve
That's great news! As to your horse, there is nothing wrong with good old Xiao Chai Hu Tang for horses, unless there are some specific symptoms that suggest we need something else?
Steve
by
bfellisdvm
December 29, 2022
Marshall continuing to do well and won his last one dog bikejor event. Keeping WLT and BZYQT at a 1:1 ratio.
Brett
Brett
by
naturevet
December 29, 2022
Woot Woot! You are the master!
S
S
by
bfellis
January 7, 2023
Well, master in training. I stoped the WLT and added XCH w/QJ as his pulse became a definite Shi Mai ( complete with lid and cowries). His stools have been bad off and on the last month and we diagnosed his housemate with Campylobacter on a PCR test and have been treating with tylan for last 10 days.
What is your go to probiotic? We have used VSL with some success? But not always complete resolution of clinical signs. What are your feelings about the probiotic strains that can help with behavior/mood , skin integrity, bowel integrity? VSL is marketing these refrigerated options. But they all have corn starch in them. Just trying to heal my Shao Yang dog (2 1/2 yr GSP -BCS 4.5/9! with amazing muscle tone and mass ) who is on XCH w/ QJ (3/4 tsp bid ) and BZYQT at same dose (rounded large scoop) but is still developing a tendinitis in his patellar ligaments and a medial buttress , bilateral without palpable instability. His feces are larger than our other 3, so he seems to have some trouble with assimilation? His tongue is lavender and dry with cracks and thin white coat. Pulse is broad, full and mid deep. Completely softens with pressure on GB 30. My wife (a DVM , CVSMT, CCRT) is starting to lose faith in my herbs. Should I increase doses? He is fed 50% raw -slightly cooked in water, 10-20% home cooked grass fed beef/organs/green veggies and remainder Purina
DRM whitefish kibble w/ Stella and Chewy baked kibble- is this the problem? Do we need to try him off all kibble? He is 85 lbs. Tendons and ligaments seem to be inflamed chronically in this dog. He has healthy skin (with plenty to spare in the head neck region-we think his eyes only really open wide when he is running at 40-50kph!! He has literally no hair on his abdomen. He is actually a breed called a Greyster- mostly GSP with some greyhound and Huskie -so he got more Greyhound for sure. He was also the case I had asked about earlier -but got on a tangent here. I’ll copy this and post under his case as well. Thank you!!
What is your go to probiotic? We have used VSL with some success? But not always complete resolution of clinical signs. What are your feelings about the probiotic strains that can help with behavior/mood , skin integrity, bowel integrity? VSL is marketing these refrigerated options. But they all have corn starch in them. Just trying to heal my Shao Yang dog (2 1/2 yr GSP -BCS 4.5/9! with amazing muscle tone and mass ) who is on XCH w/ QJ (3/4 tsp bid ) and BZYQT at same dose (rounded large scoop) but is still developing a tendinitis in his patellar ligaments and a medial buttress , bilateral without palpable instability. His feces are larger than our other 3, so he seems to have some trouble with assimilation? His tongue is lavender and dry with cracks and thin white coat. Pulse is broad, full and mid deep. Completely softens with pressure on GB 30. My wife (a DVM , CVSMT, CCRT) is starting to lose faith in my herbs. Should I increase doses? He is fed 50% raw -slightly cooked in water, 10-20% home cooked grass fed beef/organs/green veggies and remainder Purina
DRM whitefish kibble w/ Stella and Chewy baked kibble- is this the problem? Do we need to try him off all kibble? He is 85 lbs. Tendons and ligaments seem to be inflamed chronically in this dog. He has healthy skin (with plenty to spare in the head neck region-we think his eyes only really open wide when he is running at 40-50kph!! He has literally no hair on his abdomen. He is actually a breed called a Greyster- mostly GSP with some greyhound and Huskie -so he got more Greyhound for sure. He was also the case I had asked about earlier -but got on a tangent here. I’ll copy this and post under his case as well. Thank you!!
by
naturevet
January 14, 2023
Ah, I see. Same case but your concern is the GI. I have a couple of ideas for you.
Hopefully your dog 'agrees with' one or two of those approaches. Let us know as always how things go!
Steve
- If the diarrhea showed up at the same time as Crypto in your other dog, then once possibility is that he has a deeply penetrated Wind pathogen. Try massaging BL 40. If that, too, moderates the pulse, then consider short term use of Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San
- Failing that, the Blood mover comment still holds, but you might want to pair it with more Blood tonics. In other words, if he's a Shao Yang dog, the underlying issue might be Yin deficiency, particularly in the Yang Ming. If you massaged ST 37 with a distal to proximal emphasis and the pulse markedly improved, then adding in Yi Guan Jian might resolve the GI issues. You could then also add in the XHLD for his limbs. If that's too many herbs, you could reduce whatever formula you feel didn't really help
Hopefully your dog 'agrees with' one or two of those approaches. Let us know as always how things go!
Steve
by
bfellis
January 17, 2023
Well, diarrhea resolved with discontinuation of Dasuquin Advanced. Very happy. But, of course there’s a but, he partially tore his L CCL. And X-rays show both stifles have changes consistent with stifle laxity. He is 85 lbs. I increased his XCH w/QJ from 1 gm to 1.5 gm bid. BZYQT is at 1 gm bid. With laser and AP he is pretty sound, but obviously lame to me. We are considering surgery but I really want to heal him with herbs and AP, chiropractic and laser. I was thinking of replacing BZYQT with Bu Gan Tang to help reduce inflammation in tendons. Does that seem like a good idea?
Also, I sure thought Yi Guan Jian would be the answer to his GI and Blood deficiency in his Yang Ming. When used previously I did not get the response I was hoping for-he would often skip am meals, eats very slow (not really a Heat sign-eh? ) but it has been BZYQT and XCH w QJ that have seemed to turn that corner. He has a great appetite and eats eagerly, though still slower than the other dogs. He is so strong it is really difficult to walk him. I was hoping to allow him to remodel his ligaments with regular walks and try to eliminate the rough play these Pointers (Greysters aka Doodles) when ever they get time to run around the yard after we let them out. I often think my Shao Yang is weak when I can’t let them out of the dog yard in an orderly fashion.
Thanks again!
Brett
Also, I sure thought Yi Guan Jian would be the answer to his GI and Blood deficiency in his Yang Ming. When used previously I did not get the response I was hoping for-he would often skip am meals, eats very slow (not really a Heat sign-eh? ) but it has been BZYQT and XCH w QJ that have seemed to turn that corner. He has a great appetite and eats eagerly, though still slower than the other dogs. He is so strong it is really difficult to walk him. I was hoping to allow him to remodel his ligaments with regular walks and try to eliminate the rough play these Pointers (Greysters aka Doodles) when ever they get time to run around the yard after we let them out. I often think my Shao Yang is weak when I can’t let them out of the dog yard in an orderly fashion.
Thanks again!
Brett
by
bfellisdvm
January 17, 2023
Any good acupuncture tips on point selection and needling method for cruciate disease? Thank you
Brett.
Brett.
by
naturevet
January 18, 2023
Hi Brett!
Bu Gan Tang is a good choice to use along with what you have on board. You Gui Wan is another one I've used. If Dasuquin helped his GI, then he should be able to handle those tonics. I also use XHLD for dogs that have periodic flare ups while their cruciates are remodeling, but I think you were worried his system couldn't handle that. Maybe with BGT he would?
I find it takes 6 months, start to finish, to heal a cruciate. I guess surgery would be your choice if you couldn't wait that long. The herbs will at least hopefully help him heal properly so he doesn't become one of those dogs that gets even worse from the surgery if you go that route.
You'd want to double check with the surgeon to ensure the surgery doesn't mar his athletic performance. From their perspective, you don't have a choice, but with holistic care, I think you do, even with these delays in recovery (which are probably tied to his high energy and activity).
For points, I just find what's active. Look for Shao Yang points to sedate: BL 19, GB 34, GB 30, GB 27, GB 25. BL 40 (tonify) may help. ST 37 (perhaps even stim? since you want to exteriorize Blood and Yang, but want to tonify Blood so there is something to circulate). These are just guesses, but let your dog tell you what he needs needled, and let the pulse be your guide regarding how to stimulate them
Steve
Bu Gan Tang is a good choice to use along with what you have on board. You Gui Wan is another one I've used. If Dasuquin helped his GI, then he should be able to handle those tonics. I also use XHLD for dogs that have periodic flare ups while their cruciates are remodeling, but I think you were worried his system couldn't handle that. Maybe with BGT he would?
I find it takes 6 months, start to finish, to heal a cruciate. I guess surgery would be your choice if you couldn't wait that long. The herbs will at least hopefully help him heal properly so he doesn't become one of those dogs that gets even worse from the surgery if you go that route.
You'd want to double check with the surgeon to ensure the surgery doesn't mar his athletic performance. From their perspective, you don't have a choice, but with holistic care, I think you do, even with these delays in recovery (which are probably tied to his high energy and activity).
For points, I just find what's active. Look for Shao Yang points to sedate: BL 19, GB 34, GB 30, GB 27, GB 25. BL 40 (tonify) may help. ST 37 (perhaps even stim? since you want to exteriorize Blood and Yang, but want to tonify Blood so there is something to circulate). These are just guesses, but let your dog tell you what he needs needled, and let the pulse be your guide regarding how to stimulate them
Steve
by
bfellisdvm
January 18, 2023
I apologize , it was the discontinuation of Dasuqiun Advanced that coincided with normal stools. Turmeric seems to give him diarrhea wether in XHLD, homemade golden paste or in Dasuquin. We are going to continue on the non surgical route. I think I can fix this. Look at all of the other amazing shit I do!! Haha
Cheers,
Brett
Cheers,
Brett
by
naturevet
January 19, 2023
That's the spirit!
S
S
by
bfellis
February 27, 2023
Stools have been superb !! Rehab on the stifle was going well, most days it’s hard to see a lameness unless you know what to look for. He has been a little more agitated lately, he is a Fire/Wood personality for sure. Liver has appeared in excess at times. This past weekend I noted some central weakness in his left rear (same side as cruciate-though it’s probably bilateral ) I treated with acupuncture (GB 41, GB 20, KID 3, GV 20) and he was a whole lot better by the time my wife got home- I didn’t say anything to see if she would notice, esp because she was out of town with the other two dogs and you don’t want things to get worse on your watch -and he was really not clinical as earlier in the day.
So today at 5:30 pm (is this a Kidney Qi/Yin/Jing deficiency episode?) he had a small 20 second seizure -he was sleeping,got startled, stood up, ataxic leaned to left and had nystagmus with fast phase to L. I’m thinking his gene pool is shallow and branches are missing…
He is still on XCH w QJ 3/4 tsp and 1/4 tsp BZYQT and 1/4 Bu Gan Tang. Would Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu Li Tang be a better choice to anchor Kidney Yang? In lieu of XCH? Would I add Qin Jiao to CHJLGMLT? At least he doesn’t have diarrhea AND seizures. That could get messy
Thank you,
Brett
So today at 5:30 pm (is this a Kidney Qi/Yin/Jing deficiency episode?) he had a small 20 second seizure -he was sleeping,got startled, stood up, ataxic leaned to left and had nystagmus with fast phase to L. I’m thinking his gene pool is shallow and branches are missing…
He is still on XCH w QJ 3/4 tsp and 1/4 tsp BZYQT and 1/4 Bu Gan Tang. Would Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu Li Tang be a better choice to anchor Kidney Yang? In lieu of XCH? Would I add Qin Jiao to CHJLGMLT? At least he doesn’t have diarrhea AND seizures. That could get messy
Thank you,
Brett
by
bfellis
February 27, 2023
And most importantly, pulse is still full-no Blood deficiency in this pulse. It is not as superficial as it has been in the past. Light pressure just lightly lifts the fingertips. With mild to moderate pressure a big ol full pulse is waiting just below the skin. Toned to boot. Until you apply counterclockwise pressure into GB 34 and the full pulse lays only deep. Tongue is it’s pretty consistent lavender with a thin white coat, dry tongue wet mouth, good tone and volume. Does not indicate excess fluid like the pulse might? Is this a Liver Qi stagnation ? Tongue edges are thin/ sharp
by
naturevet
February 28, 2023
You know what's weird? My dog did the same thing the other day. It was tonifying treatment to her GB points that normalized the pulse and got the symptoms rapidly under control, so I used Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu Li Tang for a few days. My theory is that her Yang emerged (now that we are entering spring) with a bit too much force that day. I have her on anti-Damp, dispersing formulas for hind end weakness and spondylosis. I theorized I was a bit TOO dispersing in my prescription. I'm going to continue Yi Yi Ren Tang in the morning and use Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu Li Tang in the evenings for a bit
by
bfellis
March 1, 2023
Definitely weird. He seems much more settled yesterday and today. Of course we did have tornadoes nearby on Monday when he had his event. You guys are having some odd February weather there as well from what I understand. How would I classify the pulse I felt? Is that a Qi stagnation pulse? I suppose I will get a better understanding of these pulses in Vermont this summer! I’m going to add CHJLGMLT at night as well. Should I add some Qin Jiao to continue the cruciate treatment?
by
naturevet
March 5, 2023
HI Brett,
Adding some Qin Jiao to keep up the cruciate treatment seems wise and is probably not too dispersing.
The pulse seems like a deep full pulse that is in the process of rising and dilating, if you will. So it depicts a Yang rising tendency. Yin deficiency can allow that 'dilation' to happen and Yang to not be as anchored. That might suggest some added Bu Gan Tang might be a good idea. Or we can just wait until the 'buoyancy of spring' has passed, such that both Yin and Yang have fully emerged. At that point, once Yin and Yang are present in equal portions in the upper burner, seizure tendencies subside.
Steve
Adding some Qin Jiao to keep up the cruciate treatment seems wise and is probably not too dispersing.
The pulse seems like a deep full pulse that is in the process of rising and dilating, if you will. So it depicts a Yang rising tendency. Yin deficiency can allow that 'dilation' to happen and Yang to not be as anchored. That might suggest some added Bu Gan Tang might be a good idea. Or we can just wait until the 'buoyancy of spring' has passed, such that both Yin and Yang have fully emerged. At that point, once Yin and Yang are present in equal portions in the upper burner, seizure tendencies subside.
Steve
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