I am wondering next best step with chinese herbs, will am also considering adding in homeopathics carc, hekla and have used phos with him the past, not fitting as well, considering ars. thank you so very much for your help!!
Question Details
Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia In A Dog
by
SFarnese
-
March 7, 2025 View Case Report
I am wondering next best step with chinese herbs, will am also considering adding in homeopathics carc, hekla and have used phos with him the past, not fitting as well, considering ars. thank you so very much for your help!!
Replies
by
naturevet
March 9, 2025
If I could paraphrase your question, you're wondering how the dog can be acting and looking better on physical exam, yet the cell counts be through the roof.
My concern is the immune stimulating effects of the Standard Process product. It contains several elements that stimulate dendritic cells, which in turn stimulate lymphocyte proliferation. In theory, the LSA Combination (through its Ginseng content) could potentially do the same, but in practice it doesn't. Other herbs do, however, such as Astragalus, Echinacea and several mushrooms.
Since everything else is going well, I think you have the time to just cease Yun Zhi and the Standard Process product, and then check in a few weeks to see if cell counts are stable or slowly declining.
I would also make sure the food is 1/6 to 1/3 plant-based, and add in a Lactobacillus or Bacteroides and Bifidobacterium probiotic. The first two of those three use plant material to produce VFAs that appear to have an immune controlling effect. Shao Yang dogs (which this one definitely is given the organomegaly and the lymphadenopathy) seem especially reliant on plant material and the presence of carbohydrate fermenters in the microbiome to have a normally functioning (meaning controlled) immune system.
Those would be the first things I would try, keeping all else the same. It will be educational to us all if you're able to reduce the cell counts
Steve
My concern is the immune stimulating effects of the Standard Process product. It contains several elements that stimulate dendritic cells, which in turn stimulate lymphocyte proliferation. In theory, the LSA Combination (through its Ginseng content) could potentially do the same, but in practice it doesn't. Other herbs do, however, such as Astragalus, Echinacea and several mushrooms.
Since everything else is going well, I think you have the time to just cease Yun Zhi and the Standard Process product, and then check in a few weeks to see if cell counts are stable or slowly declining.
I would also make sure the food is 1/6 to 1/3 plant-based, and add in a Lactobacillus or Bacteroides and Bifidobacterium probiotic. The first two of those three use plant material to produce VFAs that appear to have an immune controlling effect. Shao Yang dogs (which this one definitely is given the organomegaly and the lymphadenopathy) seem especially reliant on plant material and the presence of carbohydrate fermenters in the microbiome to have a normally functioning (meaning controlled) immune system.
Those would be the first things I would try, keeping all else the same. It will be educational to us all if you're able to reduce the cell counts
Steve
by
SFarnese
March 10, 2025
Yes, my question exactly!! Thank you so very much, I am sure this will be an interesting case going forward, I will be in touch with the owner and make sure they stop the SP and the YunZhi and that they are using 1/6-1/3 plant based food and add in the probiotics!! We will see if we can schedule to recheck blood work in a few weeks.
by
SFarnese
April 2, 2025
Hello, I saw Tucker yesterday, he looks really good, doing well according to owner, loves his walks, more energy, nice pink tongue color, still very enlarged firm submandibular glands non-painful about 2cm bilaterally, not bothersome to him. Could not locate any other external enlarged LN's. Great attitude, on good whole food diet, with good probiotic and good veggies, normal eliminations. Mostly great energy. Spleen large but smooth, non-painful, liver at costal arch, not painful, Pulse feels good, firm, not easily compressible, not wiry or bouncy but nice and full. T101.6, P=104, R=20-pant, on 1 1/4 tsp of XCHT with Qing Dia 10g, Tian Jua Fen 10g, Huang Lian (coptis) 10g, Xia Ku Cao 10g, twice daily, & four marvels 1 tabs twice daily(I had prescribed 2 bid but O had misread). On blood draw, blood very dark colored. Just got results: still waiting for confirmation from pathologist but WBC 381K, RBC 4.6 (low norm 4.8), neutrophils 11,439, lymph 366,048, monos 3,813, platelets low at 163k, (low norm 170k), all other values normal, chemistry, albumin 2.6 (low norm 2.7), cpk 47 (low 59) all other values within normal limits...
I am planning to make up some more of his LSA formula as above unless you have anything else I shoudl do for this guy? Thank you so much for your input/help!! I greatly appreciate it!!
I am planning to make up some more of his LSA formula as above unless you have anything else I shoudl do for this guy? Thank you so much for your input/help!! I greatly appreciate it!!
by
SFarnese
April 6, 2025
Not sure how this works, I cannot find the update when I look sometimes, and then next time I look and can see my update, maybe I entered it wrong? When I look at the cases in general it says last entry was initial presentation on March 7th
by
SFarnese
April 6, 2025
Not sure how this works, I cannot find the update when I look sometimes, and then next time I look and can see my update, maybe I entered it wrong? When I look at the cases in general it says last entry was initial presentation on March 7th
by
naturevet
April 9, 2025
Hi there! You may want to reach out to Erin Bannink to see if you can hire her for a consult. Since the dog is feeling well, your goal is just to reduce those counts. There may be a low dose chemo that can do the trick without making the dog too sick. You could even try a very low dose of pred if that is not yet in use. That is usually the first thing I try if I need a little pharmacological help in a case like this. You'd want to use a low dose, like maybe 2.5 mg once or twice a day. It can sometimes have a dramatic effect, but I'd still reach out to Erin.
by
SFarnese
April 9, 2025
Ok, I will do that, from my understanding, the Owner is not interested in doing chemo but I will talk with her and reach out to Erin as well. Thank you so much for your help!!
by
SFarnese
April 9, 2025
Ok, I will do that, from my understanding, the Owner is not interested in doing chemo but I will talk with her and reach out to Erin as well. Thank you so much for your help!!
by
naturevet
April 9, 2025
Low dose pred is a good halfway measure to try, as it doesn't cause side effects but can help a lot. Both Erin and I use that approach
Reply to this question.
You must be logged in to reply