Question Details
Derm \"+\" Case
by rcvvmd - December 18, 2009
Yesterday's new patient has me doubting my pattern diagnosis, after reading and rereading notes and books.
Solomon is a 1.75 yr old neutered blue merle Great Dane, adopted 3 mos. ago. He presents for conventionally unrelated issues...he has periodic, non-seasonal, raised, intact papules - they seem cystic by description of the lesions in full swing, but pus has also been aspirated in past records. The lesions dissipated with Clavamox in the past, but never opened or drained. Cytology was sterile pyogranulomatous inflammation. Last week, a dime sized 'bump' became golf-ball sized, at least, and sore, per o. but subsided within a week on its own. He was still painful upon palpation of the area (dorsal midline, T-L), with a dermal slip, but no fluid.

He also has numerous pea-sized firm subdermal bumps, on his legs, behind ear, on thorax. He has 1 recent incident report of raised hives over chest/thorax/dorsum, with no known exposure to anything (but this is South FL). He also has a current open skin lesion between lateral toes on hindpaw, which is pink/red and inflamed, but he is not interested in chewing or licking, per o., and protected it from me.

Solomon also has pronounced chin acne that sometimes opens and bleeds when he rubs it on the floor. Other than that however, he is not pruritic.

Personality is shy, submissive, but grounded; fearful at times of the unknown, but not aggressive. Very gentle, sensitive, reliably good with the new family and kids, but still seems depressed and unengaged unless he is invited into a room for attention. He enjoys exercise and going out for a run or outing now, more than before, but otherwise sleeps almost constantly; o. describes him as lethargic, 'draggy' at home, with a poor to mediocre appetite.

Tongue is slightly (?) small, pale pink with a central (spleen area) sparse white film. He has dental plaque/tartar - a lot for a very young dog on dry food!
O's describe a very foul smelling belch, but his breath is not overtly bad.

Pulses are deep and thin, synchronous, slow.
He is currently eating a chicken-based kibble "Life's Abundance', w/ 26% pro, 16% fat - beet pulp as major carb source, has omega 3's etc. Appeared quite rich, on a glance. They need to add cooked rice to keep his stool firm on this kibble. It is what he had eaten in 1st home, too.
He is thin, at @ 120 lbs, with little/no muscle mass. They are having a hard time building him up; he has more the composite of a greyhound with the skeletal structure of a Dane.
He has been super-vaccinated during his young life so far.

SO; my TCVM diagnosis is...tentatively... spleen deficiency, damp phlegm accumulation, stomach (something) weakness? deficiency?
and Qi deficiency (Gu? Source? Ying? unsure).

But, his signs seem to contradict each other. He doesn't vomit, have gas or diarrhea, his skin signs aren't really allergic signs, poor appetite, no weight gain.

Please help me interpret this dog; his owners really want to help him feel better and I feel like I am off on a conundrum.

I started him on Omega 3 FA's with 500mg EPA daily, suggested a probiotic, some behavioral confidence and bonding tactics, planning to supplement diet and change food (but...?). They are willing to try herbs.

THANKS!
Robin V.
Replies
by naturevet
December 19, 2009
Hi Robin,

I agree with your general assessment of Spleen and Stomach deficiency. We could never rule those out absence of vomiting and diarrhea, because Chinese diagnosis is a form of inductive logic. This means we rule diagnoses in, based on what’s there, rather than out based on what’s not. Western medicine is deductive logic, and well suited to ruling out diagnoses based on the presence or absence of symptoms and signs.

Traits that do fit the Spleen story include this classic description of the “earth” personality type; difficulties assimilating; soft stool; the seeming aggravation on a carb rich processed diet; and the halitosis (from a lack of sufficient Yang Ming energy to quickly ripen the food, resulting in halitosis). The Spleen and Stomach are undoubtedly at the root of his problems, which means diet is as well. A diet change is essential to undue his pathology on a lasting basis. I would suggest a grain-free home-cooked diet.

The lumps and abscesses clearly are a branch, not a root. With chronic Spleen deficiency, there will eventually be a deficiency of Blood or Wei Qi, both of which are needed to protect the epithelial surfaces. The dorsal (Tai Yang) surfaces of the skin are especially vulnerable to invasion. We can look at these small abscesses, furuncles, or boils as pathogens that have superficially invaded, and entrenched themselves due to the lack of Wei Qi or Blood from the Spleen deficiency.

Rolling everything together, you may need to do this in stages (first get rid of the abscesses, then fortify the Spleen). But you can tackle both at once by changing the diet as described (to remove it as a causative factor) and using either Xian Fang Huo Ming Yin, San Ren Tang, or both. XFHMY treats Wind invasion, Damp and Phlegm accumulation, and secondary Blood stasis. It is an anti-infective formula. San Ren Tang provides Spleen and Stomach support without being so cloying as to add to the Damp problem. It also is used for Wind Damp invasions, and has a reputation for being able to deal with small abscesses.

So that’s where I’d start. You should see progress. Follow up with new formulas may not be required, or you may find yourself considering Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang or Chu Shi Wei Ling Tang.

Good luck on what could be a gratifying case.

Steve
by rcvvmd
December 20, 2009
Thanks so much! Will keep the forum posted. If home-cooking not possible, would a commercial grain-free be acceptable, ie-Orijen, or... ? I'll have a look at The Manual to construct a baseline grain-free diet for them. My main fear is messing up the Ca++ in diet for a young XL breed dog.

Robin Valentine
by naturevet
December 20, 2009
Hi Robin,

Yes, a grain-free kibble Orijen is the next rung down on the 'food chain' as far as I'm concerned. But it's still not as good as home-cooked or raw, if you can swing either of those.

Good luck,

Steve
by mabatth
December 20, 2009
I find with these types of cases with a pet that is so young that a diet change is a must. I usually tell the owners, they can either pay for vet services which may not get complete results or pay for it with diet and probably get quicker results. I would also not use the Omega 3 fatty acids at this time although I understand your thinking, due to some of the damp signs.
Good Luck
Mona
by rcvvmd
March 8, 2010
CASE UPDATE, NEED ADVICE

A few mos. ago, we had corresponded about a young GD with derm issues, likely Blood deficiency, Qi def./stagnation. We ended up starting with BZYQT1g/ 5kgs split BID for 3 weeks, then in the 4th, added 0.5g/5 kgs WLT at PM (instead of SRT). Also changed diet to grain free Orijens (slllooowwly- o. wanted to use up Lifes Abundance food 1st) and supplementing with warming veggies and chicken or beef at evening meal. Working up to home-made diet- they also have 4 young kids though, and would need another refrigerator :)

He has improved energy and endurance and more muscle mass on recheck, and is less timid, but still a bit timid. MUCH less timid with new family, but expected with time. Tongue is more pink, but still lavender tinged/ pale. Pulses are more dynamic and full. Skin signs, though still mild, are progressing toward worse: he has significant chin acne pustule n ow that open and bleed periodically per owner. No more abscess break outs on the body, but has little dry scabs erupting, and a red focal rash on the ventral abdomen that seems like rosacea. The rash is not weeping, but quite irritated; he is not licking. Stool is, as previous, formed but not firm, slightly loose - but his diet's just been changing, so...
O. also reported that at the end of urine stream, he passes mucous discharge (no pain or difficulty), was neutered a year ago, though.

We just started the Wei Ling Tang 2 weeks ago, tapering up, so maybe it will help, and I tapered down on the BZYQT to 3/4th full dose, in AM. I want to help skin issues more now (as does owner), and was wondering where to go from here. My 1st thought was SWFXY...
Any ideas for this one? Go back to originally mentioned Xian Fang Huo Ming Yin, San Ren Tang? Am I being impatient? He just seems a little better, a little worse...

Thanks!
Robin Valentine
by naturevet
March 10, 2010
Hi Robin,

You've been using tonics to this point, which has resulted in the deficient aspects of the case improving, but the excess symptoms becoming more manifest. So we need to roll in an excess formula. If the abscesses are better, not worse, then XFHMY may not be ideal, since its forte is abscesses, and those are abating. We'd want instead something that matches that pulse yet will resolve the rash and have an anti-infective effect on the acne (and perhaps even some benefits for cystitis). I'm wondering about Qing Ying Tang as the next thing you might integrate. I'd also nudge back on WLT since it is somewhat warming, and the dog's lesions seem a little too hot for it.

Hopefully you'll see some benefits with that approach. Thanks for keeping us informed!

Steve
by rcvvmd
March 11, 2010
No, thank YOU for keeping me on track!

Would it be ill advised to just d/c the WLT? Also, curious - I was leaning toward SWFXY before now considering the Qing Ying Tang. Was that a bad idea?

Thanks again,
Robin V.
by naturevet
March 11, 2010
Hi again,

If you're not seeing a dependence on WLT in terms of stability, you can probably just stop it.

SWXFY is probably okay to try. By itself, it doesn't have quite the anti-infective power of QYT, but is more suited to an animal with thin weak but slightly taut pulses. You could augment it by adding Pu Gong Ying, Lian Qiao, and Jin Yin Hua, all of which are antimicrobial flowers. Their respective common names are Dandelion, Forsythia, and Lonicera.

Good luck,

Steve
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