Question Details
Canine Lymphoma
by
tomasina
-
March 8, 2010
Replies
by
naturevet
March 8, 2010
Hi Tomasina,
We often note in these dogs that a relatively small dose of prednisone, say 0.1 to 0.5 mg/kg, is sufficient to bring the lymph nodes down when on this protocol. There appears to be a synergistic interaction between the herbs and pred that allow much lower doses to be used with excellent results.
I'd give it a try.
All the best,
Steve
We often note in these dogs that a relatively small dose of prednisone, say 0.1 to 0.5 mg/kg, is sufficient to bring the lymph nodes down when on this protocol. There appears to be a synergistic interaction between the herbs and pred that allow much lower doses to be used with excellent results.
I'd give it a try.
All the best,
Steve
by
tomasina
March 16, 2010
Hi Steve,
in the past I have treated lymphoma palliatively with pred, at antiinflmmatory doses.( in the days before TCM). In these cases I have had a short remission, with lymph node size reduction, and appettite improved, followed by a "crash" 6-8 weeks later. Given that Tim Tam is bright and eating, is it worth risking a crash, even on the low dose of pred you describe.
In other words- why am I using the pred- is it to reduce the lymph nodes size, or to improve appetite and energy, which are currently OK????
in the past I have treated lymphoma palliatively with pred, at antiinflmmatory doses.( in the days before TCM). In these cases I have had a short remission, with lymph node size reduction, and appettite improved, followed by a "crash" 6-8 weeks later. Given that Tim Tam is bright and eating, is it worth risking a crash, even on the low dose of pred you describe.
In other words- why am I using the pred- is it to reduce the lymph nodes size, or to improve appetite and energy, which are currently OK????
by
naturevet
March 17, 2010
Hi again,
I, too, used to see pred crash dogs after a few weeks of use. But using it at a very low dose (try 0.1 mg/kg) doesn't create that at all. It does, however, rapidly shrink the lymph nodes, as long as herbs are in play. I think there are biochemical synergies there that allow the pred to work like it is given at a full dose, but without the immune suppressive effects. Once the nodes are down, we start to wean off the pred, so only give it for two or three weeks.
Another herb we're trying to get a hold of to investigate is Indigo, to use as a possible pred replacement, but it's difficult trying to source it.
Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
Steve
I, too, used to see pred crash dogs after a few weeks of use. But using it at a very low dose (try 0.1 mg/kg) doesn't create that at all. It does, however, rapidly shrink the lymph nodes, as long as herbs are in play. I think there are biochemical synergies there that allow the pred to work like it is given at a full dose, but without the immune suppressive effects. Once the nodes are down, we start to wean off the pred, so only give it for two or three weeks.
Another herb we're trying to get a hold of to investigate is Indigo, to use as a possible pred replacement, but it's difficult trying to source it.
Good luck, whatever you decide to do.
Steve
by
bannink
March 17, 2010
Hi Tomasina,
Prednisone is lympholytic so you would be using it to decrease tumor burden and give your herbs some more time to take effect. Lymphoma initially can be quite responsive to prednisone but develops resistance quite rapidly, usually within 2-3 months. In my experience, the "crash" is associated with disease progression due to development of prednisone (and multiple drug) resistance. With chemotherapy, this does not occur and the herbs may act in a way that helps prevent development of resistance or proliferation of a prednisone-resistant clone as quickly.
I was able to source indigo through MayWay and it was inexpensive. I have one patient on Xiao Chai Hu Tang with 15mg Indigo and 15mg Xuan Shen who was on her third relapse, developed severe liver enzyme elevation secondary to prednisone and was showing multiple drug resistance. She responded to Adriamycin again and her energy level has significantly improved. Her improvement is due to the fact that her lymphoma went back into remission, but the combination seems to be working for her when nothing else was and her energy level has improved even more since adding the Indigo and xuan Shen to her herbal formula....anyway, her tongue and pulse were different and more suggestive of Xiao Yang syndrome, but my point is that it seems to be well tolerated and might be worth a try. Indigo is a cooling herb and there is one study showing antineoplastic action with granulocytic leukemia in people (not lymphocytic but sort of the same idea).
My two cents,
Erin
Prednisone is lympholytic so you would be using it to decrease tumor burden and give your herbs some more time to take effect. Lymphoma initially can be quite responsive to prednisone but develops resistance quite rapidly, usually within 2-3 months. In my experience, the "crash" is associated with disease progression due to development of prednisone (and multiple drug) resistance. With chemotherapy, this does not occur and the herbs may act in a way that helps prevent development of resistance or proliferation of a prednisone-resistant clone as quickly.
I was able to source indigo through MayWay and it was inexpensive. I have one patient on Xiao Chai Hu Tang with 15mg Indigo and 15mg Xuan Shen who was on her third relapse, developed severe liver enzyme elevation secondary to prednisone and was showing multiple drug resistance. She responded to Adriamycin again and her energy level has significantly improved. Her improvement is due to the fact that her lymphoma went back into remission, but the combination seems to be working for her when nothing else was and her energy level has improved even more since adding the Indigo and xuan Shen to her herbal formula....anyway, her tongue and pulse were different and more suggestive of Xiao Yang syndrome, but my point is that it seems to be well tolerated and might be worth a try. Indigo is a cooling herb and there is one study showing antineoplastic action with granulocytic leukemia in people (not lymphocytic but sort of the same idea).
My two cents,
Erin
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