I'm now finishing up my acupuncture training and have treated my first case with good results thus far. I am interested in adding an herbal supplement and need help picking one. I am treating a 12 yr F/S yellow lab who has above average energy and a great spirit. She does have typical fatty lipomas and hip dysplasia. She also has had a llaryngeal tie back procedure. In addition she has a chronic history of allergies. She has a great appetite, but she will freely let people or other dogs take her food and never has been food motivated. After play she prefers cool areas, but otherwise is a sun worshipper and seeks the warm flagstone in the sun. She sleeps soundly through the night and she is not a big drinker. She is mildly gassy and her stools are formed but not hard and only moderately offensive odor. Thanks for your help, sorry for the ramble this is my first post and I should get better.
Question Details
Herb Selection
by
merrimandvm
-
March 15, 2010
I'm now finishing up my acupuncture training and have treated my first case with good results thus far. I am interested in adding an herbal supplement and need help picking one. I am treating a 12 yr F/S yellow lab who has above average energy and a great spirit. She does have typical fatty lipomas and hip dysplasia. She also has had a llaryngeal tie back procedure. In addition she has a chronic history of allergies. She has a great appetite, but she will freely let people or other dogs take her food and never has been food motivated. After play she prefers cool areas, but otherwise is a sun worshipper and seeks the warm flagstone in the sun. She sleeps soundly through the night and she is not a big drinker. She is mildly gassy and her stools are formed but not hard and only moderately offensive odor. Thanks for your help, sorry for the ramble this is my first post and I should get better.
Replies
by
naturevet
March 15, 2010
Hi there,
Welcome to the forum. Hopefully it will help you have lots of success in herbal medicine.
To help with the dog you're talking about here, it would be great to know pulse and tongue information. Did you take a crack at that?
Also, what points have been helpful in getting the dog doing better?
Lastly, can you clarify what form the allergies take? Signs, symptoms, season of occurrence, etc?
That should help narrow the field a little.
All the best in the meantime,
Steve
Welcome to the forum. Hopefully it will help you have lots of success in herbal medicine.
To help with the dog you're talking about here, it would be great to know pulse and tongue information. Did you take a crack at that?
Also, what points have been helpful in getting the dog doing better?
Lastly, can you clarify what form the allergies take? Signs, symptoms, season of occurrence, etc?
That should help narrow the field a little.
All the best in the meantime,
Steve
by
merrimandvm
March 16, 2010
Hi Steve,
Being it was my first paying acupuncture client I was so focusing on actually getting the points right that I forgot to evaluate the tongue and pulse. I have a follow up appointment set for next week and will report back with my tongue/pulse findings then. The points I used were the hip points and Bladders 11, 23, 40, 54, and 60. Also GB 29 and 30, ST 36, and GV14. All treated bilaterally. The owner reported she almost immediately had her back straighter vs her usual swayback appearance. She also stated she was more playful and was walking more briskly and raising her legs higher during her strides. Her allergies are seasonal in spring and summer with spring being most severe. She is extremely pruritic and itching the instant you touch her almost anywhere. She is a huge foot licker when her allergies are flared, but she rarely has any skin lesions or needs antibiotic's. In the past she has responded to steroids and had been on Atopica successfully, but had to stop because of some GI upset and concern of aspiration with her laryngeal tieback procedure. by the way any last minute pointers or words of wisdom before I take this test this weekend. Many thanks,
Matthew
Being it was my first paying acupuncture client I was so focusing on actually getting the points right that I forgot to evaluate the tongue and pulse. I have a follow up appointment set for next week and will report back with my tongue/pulse findings then. The points I used were the hip points and Bladders 11, 23, 40, 54, and 60. Also GB 29 and 30, ST 36, and GV14. All treated bilaterally. The owner reported she almost immediately had her back straighter vs her usual swayback appearance. She also stated she was more playful and was walking more briskly and raising her legs higher during her strides. Her allergies are seasonal in spring and summer with spring being most severe. She is extremely pruritic and itching the instant you touch her almost anywhere. She is a huge foot licker when her allergies are flared, but she rarely has any skin lesions or needs antibiotic's. In the past she has responded to steroids and had been on Atopica successfully, but had to stop because of some GI upset and concern of aspiration with her laryngeal tieback procedure. by the way any last minute pointers or words of wisdom before I take this test this weekend. Many thanks,
Matthew
by
naturevet
March 17, 2010
Hi again,
I'll look forward to the tongue and pulse info, and then suggest something.
Meanwhile, don't sweat the exam. The horse seems to be most people's stumbling block. I'd know those points cold. Other than that, you should do fine if you're like most people.
All the best,
Steve
I'll look forward to the tongue and pulse info, and then suggest something.
Meanwhile, don't sweat the exam. The horse seems to be most people's stumbling block. I'd know those points cold. Other than that, you should do fine if you're like most people.
All the best,
Steve
by
merrimandvm
March 23, 2010
OK Steve I had my follow up exam yesterday and this is what I've gleaned from the exam. Again remember this is my first stab at doing a tongue diagnosis. The tongue appeared full with a pink general color. The margins appeared slightly wavy. There was a definite coating on the tongue in the central region, which didn't appear overly thick in nature , but it was more like a mild white froth. The tongue certainly was not dry and I observed no cracks or lesions on the tongue. The patients pulse was weak bilaterally and frankly difficult to find making assessment difficult, but the rate was up slightly as she was very excited. The owner really noticed a dramatic difference in her energy levels since our first acupuncture session. Hope that's good enough info to get us going. Thanks for your help.
Matthew
Matthew
by
naturevet
March 24, 2010
Hi again, Matthew.
The lack of skin lesions, weak pulse, enjoyment of sun, and the presence of several Damp symptoms (in a breed prone to Damp) suggest that we start with a basic Spleen-tonifying, anti-Damp, anti-pruritic formula. I'd go with one called Chu Shi Wei Ling Tang, which you should be able to source easily from Dr. Mona Boudreaux at atthherbs@aol.com
If you get deeper into summer and the skin starts to get quite itchy, then roll in Si Miao San (Four Marvels Powder) as well, but it's premature to do that if the dog is okay right now.
Hope that works for you. Best of luck on that test,
Steve
The lack of skin lesions, weak pulse, enjoyment of sun, and the presence of several Damp symptoms (in a breed prone to Damp) suggest that we start with a basic Spleen-tonifying, anti-Damp, anti-pruritic formula. I'd go with one called Chu Shi Wei Ling Tang, which you should be able to source easily from Dr. Mona Boudreaux at atthherbs@aol.com
If you get deeper into summer and the skin starts to get quite itchy, then roll in Si Miao San (Four Marvels Powder) as well, but it's premature to do that if the dog is okay right now.
Hope that works for you. Best of luck on that test,
Steve
by
merrimandvm
March 24, 2010
Thank you for your help. Is that formula going to benefit her DJD or would you suggest something else in addition for that? BTW the test went well, I hope, testing was last weekend.
Regards,
Matthew
Regards,
Matthew
by
naturevet
March 24, 2010
Right now, it's more geared to her skin. If she has a little itch, and responds well to the formula, that tells you that Damp (and diet) is an issue. If you change the diet away from processed and carbohydrate-based, you should see some benefits in the DJD. Some will probably accrue from the WLT, however.
Steve
Steve
by
merrimandvm
September 16, 2010
Hi Steve I had a follow up on this case. The patient has really done well on herbs and acupuncture treatments. We are able to go about 10 days between acupuncture treatments at this point and our old lab is very energetic. One thing has changed of late. It seems that of late, there seems to be a clear correlation between the herbs and the patient getting diarrhea, which seems odd in the respect that initially the herbs almost seemed to firm her up so to speak. WE have stopped and restarted the herbs three times recently all of which has resulted in recurrence of loose stools. My last exam revealed a moist lavender tongue with a thin tongue coating of whispy saliva. Tongue margins appear normal in shape/size. Pulses were perhaps more rapid and superficial than previously noted. They were easily cut off with minimal pressure. Also it should be noted that the patient has had several recurrent bouts of aspiration pneumonia in the last several months and we have recently diagnosed her with megaesophagus. She also has chronic allergies and of late has been more itchy than usual.
by
naturevet
September 16, 2010
Hi Matthew,
It's been a while since we talked on this case. What are you using for herbs? We talked about using a combination of Chu Shi Wei Ling Tang and Si Miao San. Which one is she on now? Still both of them? Or just the CSWLT?
If the latter, then stop CSWLT and try SMS alone. That should help a lot. The CSWLT was bringing to light a latently inflammed GI. Pulling blood away from it with SMS will help reduce the diarrhea.
If both were being used, try much more SMS relative to CSWLT.
My last comment is that, at this time of year, we see a few other conditions showing up: Yin deficiency, and Fire pathogens. It doesn't sound like you're seeing Yin deficiency, given the moisture, but if the coat looks dry and the dog is underweight, it's a consideration. Using a formula like Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan may help.
If none of the above applies, that leaves Fire. In this case, try Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu Li Tang. It may have the effect as well of helping with the megaesophagus. If the skin lesions are periocular, then all the more reason to try this one.
That's about all I can think of and I'm about to head into the backcountry for ten days. If you provide more detailed information - where the lesions are, what they and the diarrhea look like, the animal's behaviour and temp preferences, its appetite and thirst, body weight changes, etc. - then I may be able to be more accurate in the event that the above advice doesn't pan out or seem appropriate.
All the best!
Steve
It's been a while since we talked on this case. What are you using for herbs? We talked about using a combination of Chu Shi Wei Ling Tang and Si Miao San. Which one is she on now? Still both of them? Or just the CSWLT?
If the latter, then stop CSWLT and try SMS alone. That should help a lot. The CSWLT was bringing to light a latently inflammed GI. Pulling blood away from it with SMS will help reduce the diarrhea.
If both were being used, try much more SMS relative to CSWLT.
My last comment is that, at this time of year, we see a few other conditions showing up: Yin deficiency, and Fire pathogens. It doesn't sound like you're seeing Yin deficiency, given the moisture, but if the coat looks dry and the dog is underweight, it's a consideration. Using a formula like Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan may help.
If none of the above applies, that leaves Fire. In this case, try Chai Hu Jia Long Gu Mu Li Tang. It may have the effect as well of helping with the megaesophagus. If the skin lesions are periocular, then all the more reason to try this one.
That's about all I can think of and I'm about to head into the backcountry for ten days. If you provide more detailed information - where the lesions are, what they and the diarrhea look like, the animal's behaviour and temp preferences, its appetite and thirst, body weight changes, etc. - then I may be able to be more accurate in the event that the above advice doesn't pan out or seem appropriate.
All the best!
Steve
by
merrimandvm
September 16, 2010
She uses CSWLT at this point in time. I think I will switch her to SMS as she doesn't seem to be clearly yin deficient at this time. By the way she has more of a general pruritis, no dry skin. Have fun in the back country. Thanks as always for your help.
Matthew
Matthew
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