Will Stone Formula from mayWay work in a case like this? Something else better than that?
Thank- you!
Michelle
Question Details
Uroliths
by
Michelle1
-
May 17, 2009
Will Stone Formula from mayWay work in a case like this? Something else better than that?
Thank- you!
Michelle
Replies
by
naturevet
May 16, 2009
Hi Michelle,
Many traditional anti-stone formulas lack a basis in science. I'm not sure what's in the Mayway one. A substantial amount of research centers around Alisma, however, and formulas that contain it, like Wei Ling Tang and Wu Ling San. Wu Ling San, which is part of Wei Ling Tang, has shown an impressive ability to limit CaOx stone size, number, and rate of formation. It's not clear how it's pulling this off, but I suspect it is actually due to limiting the generation of nidi, around which crystals accrete. If so, that maybe why we're seeing CaOx stones also be limited and disappear with the use of San Ren Tang (which contains no Alisma) and Dang Gui Shao Yao San (which does). In all cases, I suspect what actually is going on is that stones in bladders are not inert, but in a constant state of flux that varies with urine concentration. Some may disappear entirely, and the problem is that they are replaced quickly, due top persistent formation of nidi through chronic inflammation. Long story short: if we introduce one of these formulas (as appropriate, depending on the presentation) and perhaps for a while something like potassium citrate as a supplement, we're seeing all CaOx stones dissolve completely, or at least to a point where they are small enough to be passed. After this, they don't seem to re-form. We've noted this approach to be successful in both animals and people on a routine basis.
So, my advice is choose among WLT, SRT, DGSYS, or even WLS. Maybe for a month or two, in the case of CaOx, you could also prescribe potassium citrate, but longer than this does not seem necessary.
Given this model I've painted here, movement away from carbohydrate based (Damp producing) diets will help, primarily by limiting nidi. We've found low protein diets to be completely unnecessary, and given this suspicion of nidi as the problem, I would venture the opinion they are detrimental.
Anyway, let us know how it works out for you.
Steve
Many traditional anti-stone formulas lack a basis in science. I'm not sure what's in the Mayway one. A substantial amount of research centers around Alisma, however, and formulas that contain it, like Wei Ling Tang and Wu Ling San. Wu Ling San, which is part of Wei Ling Tang, has shown an impressive ability to limit CaOx stone size, number, and rate of formation. It's not clear how it's pulling this off, but I suspect it is actually due to limiting the generation of nidi, around which crystals accrete. If so, that maybe why we're seeing CaOx stones also be limited and disappear with the use of San Ren Tang (which contains no Alisma) and Dang Gui Shao Yao San (which does). In all cases, I suspect what actually is going on is that stones in bladders are not inert, but in a constant state of flux that varies with urine concentration. Some may disappear entirely, and the problem is that they are replaced quickly, due top persistent formation of nidi through chronic inflammation. Long story short: if we introduce one of these formulas (as appropriate, depending on the presentation) and perhaps for a while something like potassium citrate as a supplement, we're seeing all CaOx stones dissolve completely, or at least to a point where they are small enough to be passed. After this, they don't seem to re-form. We've noted this approach to be successful in both animals and people on a routine basis.
So, my advice is choose among WLT, SRT, DGSYS, or even WLS. Maybe for a month or two, in the case of CaOx, you could also prescribe potassium citrate, but longer than this does not seem necessary.
Given this model I've painted here, movement away from carbohydrate based (Damp producing) diets will help, primarily by limiting nidi. We've found low protein diets to be completely unnecessary, and given this suspicion of nidi as the problem, I would venture the opinion they are detrimental.
Anyway, let us know how it works out for you.
Steve
by
Michelle1
May 21, 2009
Hi Steve,
I have switched him off the Science diet dry food that he came here eating when he blocked- now on canned PetGuard only and losing weight (was 21#!). The stone analysis showed no nidus actiually, so which herb would be appropriate now?
If there is still grit on x-rays, how long will it take to see dissolution on herbs and K+citrate?
Thanks!
Michelle
I have switched him off the Science diet dry food that he came here eating when he blocked- now on canned PetGuard only and losing weight (was 21#!). The stone analysis showed no nidus actiually, so which herb would be appropriate now?
If there is still grit on x-rays, how long will it take to see dissolution on herbs and K+citrate?
Thanks!
Michelle
by
naturevet
May 21, 2009
Hi Michelle,
There's always a nidus. It just may have mineralized and disappeared. I think they might have meant there is no additional different type of crystal at the core.
I would still use the same approach. Look for obvious changes if not complete resolution within 2 to 3 weeks.
Good luck!
Steve
There's always a nidus. It just may have mineralized and disappeared. I think they might have meant there is no additional different type of crystal at the core.
I would still use the same approach. Look for obvious changes if not complete resolution within 2 to 3 weeks.
Good luck!
Steve
by
Michelle1
May 30, 2009
Hi Steve,
This cat sustained some renal insufficinecy as a result of being blocked. His BUN on presentation was 294 mg/dl and the creat was 13.3
Got hiim down into normal ranges after a week of fluids, but as we have weaned him back down from them, BUN back up tp 70 and creat is 3.5
Have been tonifying kidney points, but want to know what else I can do to help whats left of huis tubules.
Is there a better formula the Eight Flavor Rehmannia for this kitty? His owner also asked about using nettles- appropriate/dose?
Trying to get this gut home!
Michelle
This cat sustained some renal insufficinecy as a result of being blocked. His BUN on presentation was 294 mg/dl and the creat was 13.3
Got hiim down into normal ranges after a week of fluids, but as we have weaned him back down from them, BUN back up tp 70 and creat is 3.5
Have been tonifying kidney points, but want to know what else I can do to help whats left of huis tubules.
Is there a better formula the Eight Flavor Rehmannia for this kitty? His owner also asked about using nettles- appropriate/dose?
Trying to get this gut home!
Michelle
by
naturevet
May 30, 2009
Hi Michelle,
You Gui Wan is also an option. It has Dang Gui, which can also boost renal blood flow. In practice, however, I haven't seen anything work better than Rehmannia Eight unless the cat is hot. So one option is to really bump up the dose - double it or triple it. If it's still well tolerated, then it's still right for the cat.
Nettles seed extract has been touted for use in humans. I have never seen it work in the handful of times I've tried it. The sole article that advocated it never offered an explanation of why it might help, and there has been only the one article. So I wouldn't hold my breath regarding Nettles seed, but I also don't believe it would hurt. Hopefully if the cat has enough fluid and herb support for long enough the kidneys will rally. Subcutaneous fluids every 2 days may be enough to sustain your patient.
Steve
You Gui Wan is also an option. It has Dang Gui, which can also boost renal blood flow. In practice, however, I haven't seen anything work better than Rehmannia Eight unless the cat is hot. So one option is to really bump up the dose - double it or triple it. If it's still well tolerated, then it's still right for the cat.
Nettles seed extract has been touted for use in humans. I have never seen it work in the handful of times I've tried it. The sole article that advocated it never offered an explanation of why it might help, and there has been only the one article. So I wouldn't hold my breath regarding Nettles seed, but I also don't believe it would hurt. Hopefully if the cat has enough fluid and herb support for long enough the kidneys will rally. Subcutaneous fluids every 2 days may be enough to sustain your patient.
Steve
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