Question Details
Protein Losing Eneropathy, IBD In A Dog
by Dreudog - October 2, 2014    View Case Report
Hey Steve,


This dog is a 4 yr old MN Boxer, dx w/ IBD at age 2. Hs history includes mild seasonal summer allergies and recurrent nausea and diarrhea with symptoms almost always worse in the dead of winter. He also gets a generalized mild alopecia every fall/ winter. Nausea is typically large amounts of undigested food, even 6-8 hours after a meal, and skipping breakfast. And more common in the later afternoon. "Good" stools for him are soft but formed. He came to me in the spring of 2013 on D/d dry , Budesonide and Famotidine, and Metronidazole for diarrhea flare-ups (which helps). Pred had also helped in the past.

So I started him on CSWLT and SMS/DG . Too much SMS (more than 2 tabs) would cause diarrhea. Stools seemed to improve, and no vomiting, but that was expected for summer. Allergies were better than expected last summer. As we got into fall, and had played with his dosages, it seemed that CSWLT gave him the best effect. As we were coming in to winter, I dropped the SMS/DG.

Around that time, he had bloodwork repeated, which showed the mild liver enzyme ^ (ALp and ALT) that he'd had in previous labs. As his pulse was always running thinner and tense, I added in DGSYS (he's prone to mild eye and ear goobers). Two months later he developed his first UTI; treated w/ Ab by the university. Then a moderate flare-up of his IBD in January (bitterly cold here last yr). As CSWLT had not prevented that flare, i switched him to WLT (and still DGSYS). In February, he had another bout of vomiting and diarrhea (typically more the small bowel type).

In March you recc. Wu Mei Wan, which they started. His vomiting increased , so we stopped (but then later he did this on DGSYS alone, so who knows? May have given up too early on that guy.).

This June added LJZT to the DGSYS, and he had bad gas.

The rest of summer, he stayed on DGSYS and had some occasional grass-eating, grumbly stomach noises, skipped AM meals. He had a minor flare -up of symptoms last weekend.

Last weeks' exam :

-skin looks great; best they've seen. Coat is starting to thin, with the cooler weather now.
-pulse: middle, tense, thinner
-tongue; pink, dry
-he is sweet and silly, as all Boxers seem to be!
-no discharges or odors
-no abdominal pain

So I'm thinking that he needs a descending formula for digestion, tonification of his blood supply. Should we be looking at SMS/DG again?He was off these herbs when he had a biggish winter worsening of symptoms. What about Ping wei san? I always think DGSYS will build up these thinner pulses in the blood deficient but damp dogs, but don't; have much success w/ that. Perhaps I'm not using enuf? Or it just won't tonify blood that well? Can this be a Jue yin excess? He is still on the Budesonide, just a somewhat reduced dose from when we started.

Also, we've discussed diet SEVERAL times. Mom is on board, but worried about even cooked raw, dad is not interested. If we can get him stable for some length of time, I think they may be willing, but as they remember him in his "very expensive and almost fead" state form 2 yrs back, they are understandably nervous, I'v e explained about the pro-inflammaotory effects of the processed diet. I thunk we're just going to have to get some obvious improvement on herbs first.

I get a bit lost on these long term cases, lose sight of what they need.

Your guidance is appreciated.

Thanks,


:)Cathy L.
Replies
by naturevet
October 6, 2014
Seeing as how you're not sick of my advice yet, given everything you've said, I wonder about Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang. Like Wu Mei Wan, it is a Jue Yin formula, so it fits the winter time worsening. It also fits your general sense of the dog being Blood deficient (causing alopecia, for example); the worsening on a formula that clears Heat from the Stomach (i.e. Wu Mei Wan); and the fact that the dog does better in summer when circulation is fully dispersed.

Blood deficiency induced vomiting can occur in the morning, when Liver Blood is most deficient. A homeopathic you can add in for it is Ferrum metallicum 30C. The vomiting of undigested food several hours after eating is typical of dogs who respond to it. Dang Gui Shao Yao San is actually quite light on Dang Gui, so it's not surprising you sometimes find it takes a while to correct Blood deficiency.

Overall, it seems the best fit beyond what you're doing now.

Steve
by Dreudog
October 8, 2014
Wonderful; that herb is kind of off my radar, unless something is falling out! We'll get it started.

On the Ferrum, do you like to start w/ 30C strength? And SID?


:)Cathy
by naturevet
October 8, 2014
Yes, 30C strength is what I generally go with, given SID

Steve
by Dreudog
February 10, 2015
Had hives 1 weeks go; resolved w/ antihistamines and pred from rDVM. (Had hives once as puppy). His nausea is definitely better since starting BZYQT, but AM appetite has waned in deep winter, when his symptoms have always worsened. Restarting LJZT (added to Bu zhong), and considering Wu Mei Wan after recheck next week.
by Dreudog
March 6, 2015
Hi Steve and group,

This dog's vomiting has resolved on the BZYQT, but he still has occasional AM nausea (I presume; he skips breakfast, but then usually eats OK later in the day). His symptoms have always been worse in deep winter, and this year he's had a few bouts of diarrhea, along with the AM lack of appetite on this days. The owner reports that she'll her loud stomach noises and lip smacking late PM, then by morning he's nauseous (no vomiting) and diarrhea with mucous, but rarely blood, will develop. Metronidazole always helps. He's still on Budesonide 1 mg daily.

Diet, unfortunately, is still D/d dry and canned. I don't imagine this is helping his case, and we've discussed a number of times that we may not get him off steroids and really well until he's off commercial food. The owner plans to start trying some cooked commercial pork diet once spring is here, and she knows he is more likely to feel good.

Exam 2/24;

- BAR, playful, friendly
- P: middle- deeper, not esp. fast, has some tone but thinner.
- mild alopecia (every winter)
- T; pink and sl. wet
- abd. palpation; sl. doughy

So do the reliable mid-winter flare-ups indicate either BZYQT or Wu Mei Wan? I did have her try LJZT for the AM nausea, small bowel type diarrhea (and cont'd the BZYQT). He had a flare-up; so I'm not sure if I tonified an excess state, or his dz was just waxing and waning. But for now, I had her go to BID BZYQT, quit the LJZT.

Any other thoughts?

Thanks!


:)Cathy
by Dreudog
March 19, 2015
By Dreudog
March 6, 2015
Hi Steve and group,

This dog's vomiting has resolved on the BZYQT, but he still has occasional AM nausea (I presume; he skips breakfast, but then usually eats OK later in the day). His symptoms have always been worse in deep winter, and this year he's had a few bouts of diarrhea, along with the AM lack of appetite on this days. The owner reports that she'll her loud stomach noises and lip smacking late PM, then by morning he's nauseous (no vomiting) and diarrhea with mucous, but rarely blood, will develop. Metronidazole always helps. He's still on Budesonide 1 mg daily.

Diet, unfortunately, is still D/d dry and canned. I don't imagine this is helping his case, and we've discussed a number of times that we may not get him off steroids and really well until he's off commercial food. The owner plans to start trying some cooked commercial pork diet once spring is here, and she knows he is more likely to feel good.

Exam 2/24;

- BAR, playful, friendly
- P: middle- deeper, not esp. fast, has some tone but thinner.
- mild alopecia (every winter)
- T; pink and sl. wet
- abd. palpation; sl. doughy

So do the reliable mid-winter flare-ups indicate either BZYQT or Wu Mei Wan? I did have her try LJZT for the AM nausea, small bowel type diarrhea (and cont'd the BZYQT). He had a flare-up; so I'm not sure if I tonified an excess state, or his dz was just waxing and waning. But for now, I had her go to BID BZYQT, quit the LJZT.

Any other thoughts?

Thanks!


:)Cathy
by Dreudog
March 19, 2015
PS; Tried to deleted my question in the general question area; message said that" this question was associated w/ a reply or case outcome, so could not be deleted. " I had posted the question in "my cases", as you suggested.

So, just to clarify, you and the group see the case update and new question in "my cases"?
by naturevet
March 27, 2015
Hi Cathy,

I still think of WMW for this dog. But if you feel you've tried it and the dog was worse, then we should try something else

Have you tried Yi Guan Jian? Nausea in the am either indicates Damp (yet he was worse on DGSYS) or Yang Ming Excess (i.e. Heat and Dryness). Both the latter would potentially be aggravated with WMW and DGSYS, so that fits. I guess apart from going back to WMW, I'd wonder about YGJ

Hope that (finally) helps,

Steve
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